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Speculative Evolution not related to the Neocene
JOrnitho: After reading some articles about the Antropocene and the changes in natural life due to the climate change (such as this one: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11444045/Meet-bizarre-hybrid-animals-soon-roam-Earth-climate-change.html), I thought about doing my own speculative idea for the future of Earth. I saw that the forum have a space for other project ideas, but since it's in Russian, I thought that would be better to leave this space here. The premise if that the humans became extinct (or left the planet, if following a more sci-fi path) due to catastrophic climate changes, which caused the melting of most of the polar ice capes and the collapse of the agriculture. The planktonic communities in the ocean declined, but not drastically like in the Neocene, allowing some marine mammals to survive. The corals that relied in zooxanthelas went extinct and the ocean level rised ro something similar to this map. Now 35 million years, the species that survived had evolved in new forms, while the sea level is slowly retroceding, signaling the arrival of an Ice Age. The continents changed their positions, with Central America mostly under water, with parts of it being islands. The Horn of Africa separated from the rest of the continent. Everyone is welcome to help with ideas for the continents and creatures living on them. And even giving the name for this period. I thought that could be a good place to suggest species that weren’t approved to join the Neocene, but that could suit elsewhere. So far, I thought that some marine survivors could be: -The last ballen whale, a descendant of the reproduction between blue whales and fin whales. These hybrids only survived because their parental populations were absorbed in one, which the genes of the fin's are dominant over the blue's. Even then, this species suffered a drastic bootle neck effect and sighting it is very uncommon. -Most cetaceans that still live are descendants of the common dolphin, the most populous species of cetacean. It gave origin to three groups: one replacing the orca, other replacing the beaked whales and other looking like traditional dolphins. -A descendant of hybrids between dall's porpoise and harbour porpoise living in North Pacific. -For terrestrial animals, I thought about a descendant of the brown bear with genes of their polar cousin. They are basically analogues to Arctodus in North America and maybe Eurasia. -Deep water corals are slowly invading the areas of their extinct relatives due to the waters getting cooller due to Ice Age approaching. Among some things that I thought that can be interesting are: -Seals and penguins that need ice are extinct without descendants -The Mediterranean still exist and the melting of the ice had made it swallow the lower parts of the Italian Peninsula and of Northern Africa. The Nile have a great delta. Those are my thoughts for now. If anyone have ideas to help with it, feel free to share!
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лягушка: JOrnitho The last ballen whale, a descendant of the reproduction between blue whales and fin whales. These hybrids only survived because their parental populations were absorbed in one, which the genes of the fin's are dominant over the blue's. Even then, this species suffered a drastic bootle neck effect and sighting it is very uncommon. I'm not sure that baleen whales can survive if plankton will expirience drastic decline - they are huge, need many food and reproduce very slow. Humans almost made them extinct, so decreasing of food number also can. But if you want to keep them alive, you should use small species - Bryde's whale and minke whale. They have bigger populations and more flexible diet (Bryde's whale is almost fully piscivorous). Gray whale is also interesting choise - it feeds on benthic crustaceans, but can also eat plankton like normal whales if they need. Most cetaceans that still live are descendants of the common dolphin Why only common dolphin? Bottlenose dolphin is also very common species. Deep water corals are slowly invading the areas of their extinct relatives due to the waters getting cooller due to Ice Age approaching. Why they're still alive? I read some articles that say thet they're very vuneable to problems with plankton and ocean acidification. Seals and penguins that need ice are extinct without descendants Why do you think that they are so vuneable? Penguins and seals are also living in temperate or even tropic areas! Mediterranean still exist How it fills with water? Gibraltar Strait may close in time of 35 myh.
JOrnitho: лягушка пишет: I'm not sure that baleen whales can survive if plankton will expirience drastic decline - they are huge, need many food and reproduce very slow. Humans almost made them extinct, so decreasing of food number also can. But if you want to keep them alive, you should use small species - Bryde's whale and minke whale. They have bigger populations and more flexible diet (Bryde's whale is almost fully piscivorous). Gray whale is also interesting choise - it feeds on benthic crustaceans, but can also eat plankton like normal whales if they need. In this case, I think that the Bryde's whale could be better due to the larger populations. It would still suffer the bootleneck effect, because the fishes that they eat would decrease during the planktonic decline, also making the whales population to decrease. Perhaps their descendants could become sort off generalists, also eating plankton and fishes. лягушка пишет: Why only common dolphin? Bottlenose dolphin is also very common species. I forgot about the bottlenose dolphin. I think that the raptorial dolphin and the one filling the beaked whale niche could evolve from them. The rest would be from the common dolphin. лягушка пишет: Why they're still alive? I read some articles that say thet they're very vuneable to problems with plankton and ocean acidification. I thought that they could survive. Who you think that could replace the corals? лягушка пишет: Why do you think that they are so vuneable? Penguins and seals are also living in temperate or even tropic areas! The species that I thought that would be extinct are the ones that need ice for reproduction, such as the emperor penguin, antarctic and arctic seals. Others would still exist My doubt in the king penguin. Do you think that they could survive? лягушка пишет: How it fills with water? Gibraltar Strait may close in time of 35 myh. I thought that with the sea level high, the process would be delayed. Perhaps the strait will close and Mediterranean became a internal sea, which is slowly drying up. Do you have ideas to help develop this speculative future?
лягушка: JOrnitho Perhaps their descendants could become sort off generalists, also eating plankton and fishes. Yeah, it can become generalist and next become bigger. Who you think that could replace the corals? Many groups can build reefs! Coral polyps evolved into reef-builders many times, so soft corals may turn into reef builders again. Hydrozoan polyps are also good decision - their colonies can reach large sizes, and we have reef building hydrozoans now (fire corals, for example). But not only cnidarians can become reef-buliders - all invetebrates that have calcified skeleton or build "tubes" in what they live. For example, we have poorly understood glass sponge reefs that live in British Columbia. The species that I thought that would be extinct are the ones that need ice for reproduction, such as the emperor penguin, antarctic and arctic seals. I understood you - you said not about all penguins and pinnipeds, but only about species that live in cold areas. King penguins can survive, and not only them. Spheniscus species and little penguins also can survive. slowly drying up. when Gibraltar closed first time 5-6 mya ago this sea dried very quickly in geological scales. Do you have ideas to help develop this speculative future? If bears survived in this world, most of large fauna can. So this world would have much less changes than Neocene. For example, if mustangs survive, rapidocervus can't evolve and North America would be land of perissodactyls again. Scenario like that also should happen in Australia - it should be land of placentals, with huge dogs and cats hunting brumby descendants and giraffe-camels. It don't means end of marsupials - kangaroo still would be sucessfut. And what about Antarctica? If it would melt out, it can have interesting fauna evolved mainly from birds and maybe bats.
JOrnitho: лягушка пишет: Many groups can build reefs! Coral polyps evolved into reef-builders many times, so soft corals may turn into reef builders again. Hydrozoan polyps are also good decision - their colonies can reach large sizes, and we have reef building hydrozoans now (fire corals, for example). But not only cnidarians can become reef-buliders - all invetebrates that have calcified skeleton or build "tubes" in what they live. For example, we have poorly understood glass sponge reefs that live in British Columbia. I like the idea of the reefs during this age being formed by both hydrozoan polyps and polychaetas that build tubes. лягушка пишет: I understood you - you said not about all penguins and pinnipeds, but only about species that live in cold areas. King penguins can survive, and not only them. Spheniscus species and little penguins also can survive. Maybe the king penguin could grow large and replace the seals that went extinct in Antartica. The seals from temperate areas (harbour seal and grey seal) could move to North, evolving in new forms adapted to ice. Some birds could also replace seals in other parts of the North. In the South, the only pinnipeds that would remain are non threatened fur seals and maybe elephant seals. Even that I'm usure if they'll survive the planktonic decline. лягушка пишет: when Gibraltar closed first time 5-6 mya ago this sea dried very quickly in geological scales. Then it'll end as a desert, I was only wanting to have the shape of the continents different from the Neocene. лягушка пишет: If bears survived in this world, most of large fauna can. So this world would have much less changes than Neocene. For example, if mustangs survive, rapidocervus can't evolve and North America would be land of perissodactyls again. Scenario like that also should happen in Australia - it should be land of placentals, with huge dogs and cats hunting brumby descendants and giraffe-camels. It don't means end of marsupials - kangaroo still would be sucessfut. Yes! My idea is to also show how some introduced species ended surviving after the human extinction. So we would have descendants of goats, sheeps, horses, dogs, cats and other animals in the continents. In Australia, I think that descendants of dingoes should be the most successful predators. Large marsupial carnivores would be extinct, with the only survivors being the analogues to shrews. Kangaroos would stll be the most common herbivores, but what would be of the rabbits? I think that koalas would go extinct, being replaced by possums or wombats. лягушка пишет: And what about Antarctica? If it would melt out, it can have interesting fauna evolved mainly from birds and maybe bats. Since Antarctica is moving to South America, I think that we could have bats. It'll be mostly covered by tundra. Between the extinction of the killer whales and the rise of the killer bottlenose dolphins, I think that we could have giant sharks in tropical and temperate areas as the main predators. They would be declining, slowly being replaced by new raptorial cetaceans. Basically this period would be a new Pliocene, withan ice age approaching.
лягушка: JOrnitho Maybe the king penguin could grow large and replace the seals that went extinct in Antartica. The seals from temperate areas (harbour seal and grey seal) could move to North, evolving in new forms adapted to ice. Some birds could also replace seals in other parts of the North. In the South, the only pinnipeds that would remain are non threatened fur seals and maybe elephant seals. Even that I'm usure if they'll survive the planktonic decline. How would your seal-bird look? It would stay bipedal or will crawl on belly like pinnipeds? I think that fur seals should survive - they're mid sized piscivores. But I think that elephant seals should die out, because they're too big and breed slover than most of seal species. But if you want to keep fur seals alive, penguin won't replace pinnipeds in Antarctica. Then it'll end as a desert After turning into salt pan, it should be affected by orogeny and Iranian Plateu-like become mountain range. This mountains shouldn't be something outstanding, but in many places there will be remnants of salt pans - massive halite formations in surface, It should cause formation of salt lakes at many places. Freshwater lakes also should exist in places where salt isn't presented in surface. It makes enviroment of this ridge more diverse than today's Asian plateus. This things should forme approximately in 30-50 myh. In Australia, I think that descendants of dingoes should be the most successful predators. Large marsupial carnivores would be extinct, with the only survivors being the analogues to shrews. Kangaroos would stll be the most common herbivores, but what would be of the rabbits? I think that koalas would go extinct, being replaced by possums or wombats. How would your mega-dingoes like? Should they be convergent to amphycyons or just stay typical dogs. I agree with you about marsupials of Australia, but don't forget that in 35 myh it should collide with Nev Guinea isles and approach equator!
JOrnitho: лягушка пишет: How would your seal-bird look? It would stay bipedal or will crawl on belly like pinnipeds? I think that fur seals should survive - they're mid sized piscivores. But I think that elephant seals should die out, because they're too big and breed slover than most of seal species. But if you want to keep fur seals alive, penguin won't replace pinnipeds in Antarctica. I was thinking in birds like the extinct Plotopteridae and giant auk. Since the fur seals have a good chance of surviving, how do you think that their descendants could evolve? лягушка пишет: After turning into salt pan, it should be affected by orogeny and Iranian Plateu-like become mountain range. This mountains shouldn't be something outstanding, but in many places there will be remnants of salt pans - massive halite formations in surface, It should cause formation of salt lakes at many places. Freshwater lakes also should exist in places where salt isn't presented in surface. It makes enviroment of this ridge more diverse than today's Asian plateus. This things should forme approximately in 30-50 myh. In this case, I think that wild asses, descendants of goats, ostriches and camels could be migrating through these areas. лягушка пишет: How would your mega-dingoes like? Should they be convergent to amphycyons or just stay typical dogs. I agree with you about marsupials of Australia, but don't forget that in 35 myh it should collide with Nev Guinea isles and approach equator! I thought that the dingo could evolve into amphycyon-like forms. Perhaps more marsupial forms would appear in the lands of New Zealand. The mega-dingo could be adapted to live in open areas, while these tropical forests there is at least one descendant of the quoll. Other ideas that I had are: -Giant sharks that are declining because the coming ice age. These can be like a megalodon and plankton feeding. Their decline could mark the rise of new cetacean forms, maybe some descendants of the common dolphin are involving into plankton feeding species? The descendant of the Bryde's whale also started eating plankton recently. -Descendants of grey seals evolving in analogues of elephant seals in the North Atlantic. -The largest bird of the period being a descendant of the brown bobby. It would be an analogue of the pelagornis. Any ideas for other species?
лягушка: JOrnitho how do you think that their descendants could evolve? If penguin-like birds should evolne in your "Neo-Pliocene", they should live in remote islands that should emerge in this age, where mammalian carnivores can't reach them. I also recommend you doing them in Northern Hemisphere, where penguins are absent. They can coexist with seals like penguins and great auks did, I think it's not a problem. What ancestors you wat to use for them? I think loons are the best ones. They're almost flying versions of extinct hesperornithids. Loons and some Arctic anatids should also be interisting. I think that wild asses, descendants of goats, ostriches and camels could be migrating through these areas. Yeah! These can be like a megalodon I don't think so - megalodon were specialised mega-scavenger. Ih sea won't be full of marine mammals like it was in Neogene, I don't see reasons for evolution of megalodon-like sharks. maybe some descendants of the common dolphin are involving into plankton feeding species I don't think that dolphins should evolve into filter feeders - they're specialised pack hunting piscivores. However, they can evolve in new, aberrant forms like they did in Miocene, for example become bentophages with some tusk-like teeth to burrow for prey or miniscue suction feeders with reduced teeth. brown bobby I think some procellariforms should be better choice - they already have preadaptations for gliding for very long distances without moving wings like Pelagornis did. They also are biggest of Holocene birds by wingspan.
медведь: I don't think that dolphins should evolve into filter feeders - they're specialised pack hunting piscivores. But could they evolve into a Janjucetus-like species?
лягушка: медведь But could they evolve into a Janjucetus-like species? Yes, they can. But it should look like in other way - Janjucetus was stem-mysticete, so it hasn't developed any echolocation at its evolutionary stage. So it should be just bottlenose dolphin filling niche of leopard seal as small marine mammal hunter living in shallow seas.
JOrnitho: лягушка пишет: If penguin-like birds should evolne in your "Neo-Pliocene", they should live in remote islands that should emerge in this age, where mammalian carnivores can't reach them. I also recommend you doing them in Northern Hemisphere, where penguins are absent. They can coexist with seals like penguins and great auks did, I think it's not a problem. What ancestors you wat to use for them? I think loons are the best ones. They're almost flying versions of extinct hesperornithids. Loons and some Arctic anatids should also be interisting. I thought that loons could be the perfect ancestor, they could live in islands of North Pacific and Atlantic. They would be the analogues to Pontopteridae. I also thought that the razorbill could evolve in a flightless form. лягушка пишет: I don't think so - megalodon were specialised mega-scavenger. Ih sea won't be full of marine mammals like it was in Neogene, I don't see reasons for evolution of megalodon-like sharks. In this case, maybe a species more similar to Carcharodon carcharias would make more sense? лягушка пишет: I don't think that dolphins should evolve into filter feeders - they're specialised pack hunting piscivores. However, they can evolve in new, aberrant forms like they did in Miocene, for example become bentophages with some tusk-like teeth to burrow for prey or miniscue suction feeders with reduced teeth. I like these ideas. My first thoughts for these cetaceans was that they would have modified teeth like those of the crabeater seal, being used to strain crustaceans from the water. лягушка пишет: I think some procellariforms should be better choice - they already have preadaptations for gliding for very long distances without moving wings like Pelagornis did. They also are biggest of Holocene birds by wingspan. Maybe a larger descendant of the fulmars? Do you have ideas for adaptations that this bird could have? Perhaps pseudoteeth to easily kill prey? лягушка пишет: Yes, they can. But it should look like in other way - Janjucetus was stem-mysticete, so it hasn't developed any echolocation at its evolutionary stage. So it should be just bottlenose dolphin filling niche of leopard seal as small marine mammal hunter living in shallow seas. In this case, I think that it could eat small seabirds, while also being hunted by larger cetaceans.
JOrnitho: I had an idea for a descendant of the grey seal, with it becoming large like the elephant seal and filling its niche. Do you have ideas for the descendants of the common seal? One of them could be an analogue of the leopard seal, hunting seabirds and pups of other species of seals. Meanwhile in the Southern Hemisphere,it would be a dolphin who hunts the sea birds. I think that they would have genetic material from the close related spotted seal. Also, do you think that any of these new seal species would be able to reach places like the Caribbean Sea or Hawaii? Besides these ideas, I also thought about a descendant of fur seal feeding on bivalves and crustaceans by using strong mandibles to crush them.
медведь: My first thoughts for these cetaceans was that they would have modified teeth like those of the crabeater seal, being used to strain crustaceans from the water. One theory concerning Janjucetus says that it was like that!
JOrnitho: I had some doubts about the survival of ungulates. Donkeys could survive in South America, Africa and Asia, but what abould horses? Where do you think that they could survive? There is already wild horses in Europe and North America, do you think that they could live here? Would they develop new forms? Also, camelids is another concern. I see the dromedaries surviving, both in Africa, Asia and Australia. With the closing of the Mediterranean sea, I can see then crossing to Europe too. Could they get new forms? What could happen with New World camelids? Would they survive?
медведь: Could they get new forms? Maybe there will be Alticamelus-like forms?
JOrnitho: медведь пишет: Maybe there will be Alticamelus-like forms? I thought that it could happen. The giraffes would be extinct, so these alticamelus-like could replace them in Africa. Unless antelopes have a best chance of doing it. In this case, these giant camelus could live in Asia.
лягушка: JOrnitho I had some doubts about the survival of ungulates. Donkeys could survive in South America, Africa and Asia, but what abould horses? Where do you think that they could survive? There is already wild horses in Europe and North America, do you think that they could live here? Would they develop new forms? I think donkeys definitely will survive - they're ecologically flexible species. Do you have ideas what we can do with them? Horses also should survive in most of places where it were introduced by the same reason. However, I don't know what we can do with them apart of refilling exctint Equus species niches. Horse megafauna looks interesting, but their one-toed feet can be a problem. Also, camelids is another concern. I see the dromedaries surviving, both in Africa, Asia and Australia. With the closing of the Mediterranean sea, I can see then crossing to Europe too. Could they get new forms? What could happen with New World camelids? Would they survive? I think they definitely can survive because they're already adapted for living in harsh conditions of extinction. I have some ideas of their descendants: - In Australia, camels can fill most of megafauna niches, but shouldn't evolve in cursorial forms like they did in Neocene because of this niche is already being filled by brumbees. For example, they can evolve into Alticamelus analogs - Arctic mammoth steppe, if it shall appear, can support huge wooly camels filling niche of mammoths. They also can have relatives in African savannahs. - Alticamelus analogues also can evolve in Africa, filling giraffe niche. - Most of other camels should have basal niche and anatomy. But I think you can do something interesting with them! Llamas also should survive, but if climate should warm up, tehey should face problems with habitat loss.
JOrnitho:
лягушка: JOrnitho I can't see your new messages! I don't know what's going on, but it's a problem.
медведь: Neither can I, JOrnitho!
JOrnitho: Do you can see it now? Yesterday my messages weren’t appearing! лягушка пишет: I think donkeys definitely will survive - they're ecologically flexible species. Do you have ideas what we can do with them? Horses also should survive in most of places where it were introduced by the same reason. However, I don't know what we can do with them apart of refilling exctint Equus species niches. Horse megafauna looks interesting, but their one-toed feet can be a problem. I thought that they could become analogues to zebras in some areas, such savannas of Africa and South America. For horse, I thought that there could be large species living in the steppes. Their one-toed feet limits their body changes, so I thought that their evolution would be a matter of size, with smaller species appearing in some areas. Perhaps slim and small forms appearing in the North American praries, while large and thick forms appears in the tundra. лягушка пишет: In Australia, camels can fill most of megafauna niches, but shouldn't evolve in cursorial forms like they did in Neocene because of this niche is already being filled by brumbees. For example, they can evolve into Alticamelus analogs I like it! The descendants of the brumbies could have evolved into smaller forms adapted to hot areas due to the climatic change. They would be hunted by the amphycyon-like dingoes and whatever carnivore appeared in the continent. лягушка пишет: Arctic mammoth steppe, if it shall appear, can support huge wooly camels filling niche of mammoths. They also can have relatives in African savannahs. - Alticamelus analogues also can evolve in Africa, filling giraffe niche. - Most of other camels should have basal niche and anatomy. But I think you can do something interesting with them! Llamas also should survive, but if climate should warm up, tehey should face problems with habitat loss. I like those too. The Alticamelus analogues could have first appeared in Africa and spread to Europe and Asia. I can see some cursorial forms appearing, perhaps to replace some antelopes. The giant artctic camel is a good idea, they could replace the European bison. Talking about mammoths, I think that hyrax could evolve to partialy replace elephants and rhinoceros. They could evolve astrapotherium and toxodon-like forms that are slowly moving out of Africa, into Europe through the closed Gibraltar strait. Maybe they reach Asia at some point.
лягушка: JOrnitho Do you can see it now? Yesterday my messages weren’t appearing! Now I see your message! smaller forms adapted to hot areas due to the climatic change. I think Australia should have moist and warm climate and approach close to equator. So it should like South America, but with moonsons. I think that hyrax could evolve to partialy replace elephants and rhinoceros. They could evolve astrapotherium and toxodon-like forms that are slowly moving out of Africa, into Europe through the closed Gibraltar strait. Maybe they reach Asia at some point. Basal hyraxes from family Pliohyracidae already were megafauna species and lived in Asia. However, this lineage died out afrer beginning of ice age. Also, they looked like poorly drawn peccary, not South American megarauna. But i think evolution of rhino-like hyraxes also won't be problem.
JOrnitho: лягушка пишет: I think Australia should have moist and warm climate and approach close to equator. So it should like South America, but with moonsons. So maybe there is a species of horse adapted to forests? They could slim and smaller than present horses. лягушка пишет: Basal hyraxes from family Pliohyracidae already were megafauna species and lived in Asia. However, this lineage died out afrer beginning of ice age. Also, they looked like poorly drawn peccary, not South American megarauna. But i think evolution of rhino-like hyraxes also won't be problem. I think that they could look like basal rhinoceros, without horns, but sill large in size. I also thought that the saiga could evolve in a bull-like form. For predators, I thought that seriemas could become terror bird-like, specialized in hunting descendants of the introduced Antilope cervicapra in South America. In Africa and Eurasia, maybe the leopards could continue with a lineage of pantherine predators, ranging from a leopard size to that of a tiger. They are the Panthera with the greatest chance of surviving.
лягушка: JOrnitho So maybe there is a species of horse adapted to forests? They could slim and smaller than present horses. Yeah, I think they can. This animals should look like some sort of perissodactylian musk deer, I think. I also thought that the saiga could evolve in a bull-like form. i think that saiga should die out - it's critically endangered species now. For predators, I thought that seriemas could become terror bird-like, specialized in hunting descendants of the introduced Antilope cervicapra in South America. In Africa and Eurasia, maybe the leopards could continue with a lineage of pantherine predators, ranging from a leopard size to that of a tiger. They are the Panthera with the greatest chance of surviving. Yeah, they can. However, it's more likely for sereima to develop dromaeosaur-like claws, not massive beak - it can be more effective against small prey, but not large. Antilopes can be hunted not by neo-bird of terror, but by pumas ore massive descendants of Leopardus species. I thing leopard can survive and continue lineage of pantherines, but I think that it's more realistic and interesting to wipe it out and give way to other felids. Most of Afro-Eurasia should be occupied by caracals, they can evolve into saber-toothed forms. Descendants of Felis genus, like african wildcat or feral cat descendants, also can evolve into big carnivores. Serval can take niche of cheetah in African savannahs. In both Americas, mountain lion lineage should continue and evolve into dominant macro-carnivores.
JOrnitho: лягушка пишет: i think that saiga should die out - it's critically endangered species now. I agree, I thought that they survival in the Neocene was already improbable. I think that in this case, the domestic cattle had more chance of surviving in wild forms. Or it dies out and the goats or antelopes evolve to bull-like forms. By the way, which species of antelope you think that could survive? лягушка пишет: Yeah, they can. However, it's more likely for sereima to develop dromaeosaur-like claws, not massive beak - it can be more effective against small prey, but not large. Antilopes can be hunted not by neo-bird of terror, but by pumas ore massive descendants of Leopardus species. It makes sense. The descendant of the Leopardus could have a cheetah-like form. лягушка пишет: I thing leopard can survive and continue lineage of pantherines, but I think that it's more realistic and interesting to wipe it out and give way to other felids. Most of Afro-Eurasia should be occupied by caracals, they can evolve into saber-toothed forms. Descendants of Felis genus, like african wildcat or feral cat descendants, also can evolve into big carnivores. Serval can take niche of cheetah in African savannahs. In both Americas, mountain lion lineage should continue and evolve into dominant macro-carnivores. I like all these ideas! Besides these felines in Africa, the spotted hyena and striped hyena could also survive. In North America, descendants of coywolves could replace the true wolf. In South America, there could be descendants of the domestic dog hunting like African wild dog. Do you have other idea for canids and predators?
лягушка: JOrnitho Or it dies out and the goats or antelopes evolve to bull-like forms. By the way, which species of antelope you think that could survive? Yeah, I think that goats and antelopes can evolve into something cattle-like. You also asked what antelopes can survive. I don't know them well enough, but I think that some members of gazella genus, oryx, impala and someone from hartebeest lineage should survive. Bovinae lineage also shouldn't die out. The descendant of the Leopardus could have a cheetah-like form. yeah, they can! Do you have other idea for canids and predators? Huge raccoons at Sount America?
JOrnitho: лягушка пишет: Yeah, I think that goats and antelopes can evolve into something cattle-like. You also asked what antelopes can survive. I don't know them well enough, but I think that some members of gazella genus, oryx, impala and someone from hartebeest lineage should survive. Bovinae lineage also shouldn't die out. I think that domestic cattle could survive in most continents, perhaps the return of auroch-like forms. The domestic yak could survive in the himalayas and perhaps other areas of Asia. лягушка пишет: Huge raccoons at Sount America They could become bear like.
медведь: They could become bear like Like Chapalmalania?
JOrnitho: медведь пишет: Like Chapalmalania? Yes! There could even be one eating bamboos, like a panda.
лягушка: медведь Like Chapalmalania? Yeah! I mean this body shape. Also, should South Ameica be isolated in your project? If not, bear-like raccons and some other species like velociraptor-sereimas can't exist due the concurence.
медведь: There could even be one eating bamboos, like a panda. Interesting! For some reason, in South America have never been any large bamboo-eaters like pandas, gorillas and Gigantopithecus.
JOrnitho: лягушка пишет: Yeah! I mean this body shape. Also, should South Ameica be isolated in your project? If not, bear-like raccons and some other species like velociraptor-sereimas can't exist due the concurence. I thought that the Panama landbridge would have collapsed due to tectonic movements.
лягушка: JOrnitho I thought that the Panama landbridge would have collapsed due to tectonic movements. Ok, it makes sense.
JOrnitho: Regarding the Amazon, I thought that due to rise of the sea level and tectonic movements, the entire basin could have become an internal sea, which would be surrounded by mangrove forest. In a place like this one, an endemic species of sea dolphin could appear, together with giant capybaras, caimans, turtles, aquatic birds and several other species.
медведь: Regarding the Amazon, I thought that due to rise of the sea level and tectonic movements, the entire basin could have become an internal sea, which would be surrounded by mangrove forest. In a place like this one, an endemic species of sea dolphin could appear, together with giant capybaras, caimans, turtles, aquatic birds and several other species. Actually, if I remember correctly, it has been a bay when the Andes rose and blocked Amazon´s flow to the Pacific Ocean, but when it had not yet found a route to Atlantic. I think there will be giant stingrays too!
JOrnitho: медведь пишет: Actually, if I remember correctly, it has been a bay when the Andes rose and blocked Amazon´s flow to the Pacific Ocean, but when it had not yet found a route to Atlantic. I think there will be giant stingrays too! Yes! And there would be sharks too. Another idea that I had was that the hyrax could give rise to a genus that have structures like those of the brontotheres, with each species having one of a different shape. Another lineage of descendants of the hyrax would be large like paraceratherium, but filling the niche of elephants.
лягушка: JOrnitho Another idea that I had was that the hyrax could give rise to a genus that have structures like those of the brontotheres, with each species having one of a different shape. Another lineage of descendants of the hyrax would be large like paraceratherium, but filling the niche of elephants. Yes, hyraxes can evolve into brontotherium-like of forms as they did it in Neocene! However, I don't think that something paraceratherium-sized should evolve in future without large mass exctinction. Paraceratheres became so huge to defend against cumbersome hoofed carnivores, and now their niche is occupied by giraffes.
JOrnitho: лягушка пишет: However, I don't think that something paraceratherium-sized should evolve in future without large mass exctinction. Paraceratheres became so huge to defend against cumbersome hoofed carnivores, and now their niche is occupied by giraffes. Maybe them can reach the size of elephants? Giraffes would be extinct, being replaced by camels. However, the niche of elephants would be left vacant. Unless you think that they can survive.
лягушка: JOrnitho Yeah, elephants should went extinct due hunting and slow reproduction. I think they should be replaced by something chalicothere-like. Trunked pigs also can evolve, but they may be hippo-like, not elephant-like.
JOrnitho: лягушка пишет: Yeah, elephants should went extinct due hunting and slow reproduction. I think they should be replaced by something chalicothere-like. Trunked pigs also can evolve, but they may be hippo-like, not elephant-like. The hyraxes could give rise to a chalicothere-like lineage.
JOrnitho: Hi, everyone! Recently, I read some articles that inspired me to explore this idea again. I decided to write all the plans that I had so far, besides those very good ones that were suggested previously by лягушка when we talked about it last year. I'll leave it there so you could give your opinions, suggestions and maybe even participate by proposing species. Maybe you could even show that to the other Russian speakers of the forum? I believe that they would have a lot of good ideas. I still maintain the idea that the human species disappeared from Earth after catastrophic climate changes (I'm tempted to have them being in another planet, but occasionaly sending probes to collect specimens, with it being how they are classified). In 35 millions of years in the future, the water levels raised due to the global warming, but a glacial age is slowly approaching and it'll mark the end of this “Neopliocene” (for a lack of a better name at the moment), with the ice in the poles becoming far larger when it happens. This will also make the sea level drop once again, causing the end of the shallow water habitats that were formed and some coastal areas flooded. I'm not a geologist, but I risked some projections for the geography of this future Earth: -Most of Central America was completely flooded, forming a region of shallow waters that connect the Atlantic and Pacific. What remained above water are several volcanic islands that were once mountains in the region. This part of the world is very unstable tectonically and there is projections that a great earthquake can cause a large landbridge to rise once again. I would call this area as the Central Sea. -By лягушка suggestion, the Gibraltar Strait was closed causing the Mediterranean sea to dry out. Now there is some mountain ranges, with salt pans that are remnants from the sea. The Nile still flows there and its delta formed a large lake, the size of Lake Karba. It's the largest source of freshwater in the region. -The Horn of Africa separated from the continent. -Due to the sea level rising, some Indonesian islands are smaller. -New islands appeared due to geological events, specialy in the Pacific. -Some islands between Greenland and North America (Nunavut, Barthust and others) would be smaller. -Hudson Bay would expand and connect with the Great Lakes and Saint Lawrence River, separating Labrador and Newfoundland from America as an island surrounded by shallow water and kelp forests. -The Amazon river would still flow from the Andes, but it now drains in a shallow inner sea that was formed when part of its basin was flooded. -Maybe the back sea dried out? -Scandinavia could be an island. -The ice capes are located in the extreme North and South, expanding only a bit during winter. The Ice Age will change that. -United Kingdom and Ireland collided with mainland Europe due to tectonic movements. -Antarctica is closer enough to South America that one species of bat moved there. -The Paraná river basin was also flooded due to the increase of the sea level. -The Baikal sea would have a larger and deeper connection with the sea. I also listed some of the ideas that we had before bellow. There is also some new ones: -The climate change caused the collapse of the plankton, but it was less intense than in the Neocene. This allowed some seals, cetaceans and penguins to survive. -My idea for oceanic cetaceans (still unsure by the river dolphins) survival is that their populations diminished due to the collapse of plankton. This diminishing made close related species to breeding with each other, generating a hybrid lineage that survived into the “Neopliocene” to the point of generating new species. Following that, harbor porpoise and dall's porpoise, both capable of generating hybrids in the wild, gave rise to a lineage that have species in the North Pacific, South Pacific and one in the Central Sea. Spinner dolphin, stripped dolphin and Clymene dolphin also hybridized into only one lineage. Clymene dolphin was already a species that evolved from hybrids of the other two. It could happen again. All these would fill niches similar to their ancestors. -With the orca extinct, its place would be taken by a descendant of a hybrid lineage too. However, I'm still uncertain of which one. I'm split between Tursiops aduncus × T. truncatus or T. truncatus x Pseudorca crassidens. The last one, while from different genus, generated hybrids in captivity that were fertile when crossed back to one of the parent species. They are also known to interact friendly in nature. -Another lineage of Tursiops truncatus hybrids would generate a genus of analogues to beaked whales and other of plankton eating species. -Only two lineages of baleen whales would survive. One is formed by hybrids of Common minke whale and Antarctic minke whale. They would grow to the size of a Fin whale. They would be generalists, feeding more in fishes and squids than in plankton. -The other is the gray whale, that survived the planktonic collapse by feeding more on benthonic animals. Its descendants would quickly fill the plankton eating niches. The largest species have the size of a bowhead whale. -Californian and South American sea lions would be the only otariids to survive. Their descendants would be predators of fishes, squids, smaller seals and sea birds. -Krill went extinct, being replaced by copepods. - Small glass squids are the most important prey in the sea, replacing lanternfish that aren’t as populous as before. Some Poeciliidae and Cichlids would have moved to the sea too. - Coral reefs would be replaced by other cnidarians (soft coral) and sponges that would make similar solid structures. -Introduced plants and animals would have left descendants in most continents. Australia, for example, would see all their large carnivorous marsupials extinct and completely replaced by dogs and cats. Only shrew-sized ones would stay. Rabbits would go extinct due to sickness (papilloma virus and others). Wallabys and kangaroos would be dominant. Camels and bovids would be there too. -Horses, donkeys, goats, poutry, pigs, sheeps and cattle would leave descendants in places where they were introduced, when it makes sense for them to exist, of course. -Hyrax would replace rhinoceros and have some large weird forms in Africa and Europe. Things like tapirs, brontotheres and hippos. I'm tempted to have bush elephants surviving, but females of this lineage would be tuskless due to genetic mutation. This would cause change in diet and affect their environment drastically, something that would be fun to explore. -Maybe leopards could survive in India and Africa? -The shallow coastal waters that appeared with the rising of the sea would be filled with seagrass. Maybe manatees could survive? It would come from a lineage of marine manatees that have some genes of the amazonian species. Hybridization between them happens a lot these days, with some individuals being fertile and crossing back with the parental species, leaving their genes there. -If not a manatee, a Desmostylia-like capybara could be a possibility. - Penguins and seals that depended of ice would be extinct. All species of seal would descend of harbor and gray seals. The second filling the niche of walrus and elephant seal. King penguin, Sphenicus, macaroni penguin and blue penguin could survive. Feel free to suggest ideas and discuss these ones. I would love to hear what you have to say about it.
медведь: So, unlike Author, you decided to retain Australian placental carnivores, but to wipe out the rabbits instead?
JOrnitho: медведь пишет: So, unlike Author, you decided to retain Australian placental carnivores, but to wipe out the rabbits instead? Yes. Among the ways that were used to control the rabbits in Australia, some virus were introduced. My idea is that one of them suffered a mutation that made it even more mortal, spreading through the country quickly and killing the rabbits, rendering them extinct in australian lands. Since then, this virus vanished from nature. Perhaps the humans that left Earth have it stored in a collection of virus located in their new homeworld.
медведь: More lethal viruses do not last long, and Australia is huge. In 1950, the SLS strain of myxoma virus from the South American tapeti (Sylvilagus brasiliensis) was released in Australia as a biological control agent against feral rabbits. The virus was at first highly lethal, with an estimated case fatality rate of close to 99.8%. Within a few years, however, this strain was replaced by less virulent ones, which permitted longer survival of infected rabbits and enhanced disease transmission. The virus created strong selection pressure for the evolution of rabbits resistant to myxomatosis. As rabbits became more resistant the viral strains responded by becoming less virulent.
JOrnitho: медведь пишет: More lethal viruses do not last long, and Australia is huge. I still want the rabbits mostly extirpated, but one lineage surviving and replacing wombats could happen. I discussed last year how the wombats could become extinct.
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